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Talk:White Council
I suppose Gildor Inglorion might have been a member too, but iḿ quite sure Thranduil wasn't a member, possibly because of his personal grief he held against the High-Elves after his father#s death in the battle of the last Alliance.Why did you Add Galathil, Aranwe, Voronwe and Lenwe? They were by then inhabitants of Aman and kept out of middle-earthian politics, besides Galathil, Aranwe and Voronwe don#t seem to have been important leaders among the High-Elves.--Haerangil (talk) 15:16, June 30, 2014 (UTC) Well they are not important leaders among the "High Elves" but they are important leaders nonetheless. I added Aranwe and Voronwe because it never states that they left middle earth, died, or were lost. I titled the White Council as having "assumed members" because there are suppose to be a large number of the wise. Lenwe, Aranwe, Voronwe, and Galathil would all be representative for the White Council. Also, Tolkien did things in 9 to 15, given that we have over 9 White Council members that we know of, 15 seems the more logical. Also it makes since as to how Saruman became the leader. He, Radagast, Voronwe, Aranwe, Thranduil (I thought at the time), Lenwe, and Arahad I, would have voted for Saruman splitting the councils decision as leader, and Gandalf broke the tie by voting for Saruman. All in all Haergenil, no one can say who was exactly on it. I just figured that these wise were never discussed about again, so they are elves, they live forever, so why not. I can try to take Thranduil off, but who would replace him? Do you feel Oropher should be removed as well? Lastly, I always figured Galathil was personally hunting Maglor in middle earth. That is why he stayed behind. He has taken up the disciplines of assassination and is thus considered (in my mind) a Nightblade. As Voronwe was saved by Ulmo, I figured that Galathil was saved from suicide by Namo, given that he would have been grief striken with the loss of everyone he loves. Also, it is plausible that Elrond being his nephew--he would want to protect and aid him as much as possible to make up for the his losses in Doriath. I have a bunch of stats on Galathil, it is all non-canon but then again, so is most of this wiki. The story of Galathil and how he came to stay in middle earth is a promising one which I have come to enjoy. I can post it if you wish, but for now just read all of this, and I'll try to find someone to replace Thranduil. Maybe Arminas? Or a spirit/Maia? Moran half valar (talk) 17:44, June 30, 2014 (UTC) Also, why wouldn't Thranduil be on it? No dwarfs. Admitted, he would be reluctant like his father, but like his father, he may have been able to see the greater good. Don't know, let me know what you think. Moran half valar (talk) 18:06, June 30, 2014 (UTC) I feel good about this council of 15, since you have the Black Council being 13 members and all of them are extremely powerful. Moran half valar (talk) 18:07, June 30, 2014 (UTC) Well voronwe supposedly went with Earendil so he#s either residing in aman or possibly went with him into outer space to guard the borders of Arda from Morgoth#s return.Aranwe certainly was one of the nobles ofgondolin, if he survived the city#s fall he must have lived at the havens of sirion, where the exiles settled down.If he survived the third kinslaying he may either have gone to Tol Eressea or stayed among the exiles in Lindon or perhaps he might have joined the wandering companies... but since his son and Grandchild (Littleheart) supposedly went to Tol Eressea i think it's most convicing to suppose that he joined the rest of his family.--Haerangil (talk) Well I guess we'll have to update the council later. Do you have any other members that could fit in? I mean the Black Council has 13 members, pretty sure the White Council would have 14-15 members. Moran half valar (talk) 21:29, June 30, 2014 (UTC) Also, captain H. Galathil, Voronwe, Aranwe, Lenwe, and Thranduil have just as much opportunity to be on the council as: Alatar and Saruman for the Black Council. If you wanted to replace them--these are literally the only options you have left: Maglor, Arminas, Daeron, Pallando, Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, and Badger-Brock. But look, Maglor we figure he committed suicide. Arminas could be, or he went to the blessed realm, Daeron went to the east, Pallando is the same, and the other three are considered to be worthless and unwise. So I would say the list I gathered is perfectly accurate. Voronwe has nothing to do with Earindel the blessed. He advised and helped Tuor, Earindel's father. Is Littleheart Iron Crown Enterprises or Tolkiens? If he is based off of Tolkien then you are right and I'll change the character list. But you can be on the council and not like all the members Saruman is a great example of this. Moran half valar (talk) 23:42, June 30, 2014 (UTC) :I´m quite sure Voronwe was mentioned among Earendil´s crew, but I´ll have to find a quote from HoME to back up that.Littleheart was from Book of lost tales.Lenwe was supposedly dead, though it is not mentioned if he died in rhovanion or Eriador but he seem to have died in the first age.I´m not sure about Galathil, he#s hardly ever mentioned, if he survived Beleriand he might have lived in Lindon.I doubt a wild Badger-spirit or Bombadil had any interests in the politics of middle-earth... no other ainur but the five istary were invited to the council any way as it seems.--Haerangil (talk) 04:12, July 1, 2014 (UTC) Ok, so if we cut Aranwe, Voronwe, and Lenwe, who are we going to replace them with? Pallando, Arminas, and Daeron? Moran half valar (talk) 05:08, July 1, 2014 (UTC) Where does it say Lenwe died? Moran half valar (talk) 05:12, July 1, 2014 (UTC) :it is never stated per se what has happened to lenwe but must sources i´ve read this morning seem to assume his dead. it was stated that the Green Elves fled from terrible wars in eriador and rhovanion and that many died in the forests... the main thing why i´m reluctant to use those characters is the law of the elder among the eldar... usually the son only takes over the role of the king or chief if his father is dead, sometimes the position is even taken over by the older brother instead (take in mind Elmo ruled the sindar while Thingol was missing). The feanorian princes are all dead, Gil-galad was the last of their line, Galadriel could have claimed the sucesion but she did#nt, Gildor possibly did't claim the title because he was only a sister son (if we suppose he was of he house of finrod, which is not sure).So Voronwe would#t have rised to lordship as long as his father was still alive, even if Aranwe was of the royal house which isn#t even sure.Lenwe would be dead or missing if his son -denethor took over the title.The wood-elves obviously had no leaders until the sindar-exiles from doriath arrived among them and oropher and Amdir Malgalad were made kings... so i conclude that Lenwe was dead or missing. It was never stated why they were accepted as kings by the Nandor, it may have been either because of their talents or perhaps because they were from the royal line of the Teleri (which i prefer...).I would#t include Daeron who possibly resides in the East and has cut contact to the Eldar but theIthryn luin might have been members at an early stage maybe until Saruman#s return from the east or a later time when no more was heard of them (I always preferred to see that point after the Necromancer#s return to the East but that#s speculation.--Haerangil (talk) 12:39, July 1, 2014 (UTC) Thanks for the input Haergnil, but my sources have shown me that Lenwe settled in the Rhun Forest. He never went past the Misty Mountains. So how could he and his people, which are Nandor, all be thrown into the far west? Remember, it said when Lenwe and his people came in sight of the mountains, they voided the trip to the Blessed Realm. How do we know the elves left to Amdir and Oropher were not the rest of Denethor's group? I mean I know all them got butchered, but some could have been left over. I mean from behind the Misty Mountains to Beleriand--that is a long way! If the Blue Wizards are on the council and they went to the far east immediately, how could they have been on it? If they can be on it, I don't see why Lenwe or Daeron can't. Also, you have 13 members for the Black Council which includes Alatar (which there is more evidence that he was not under Sauron's influence but acted out of greed and power lust on his own). The White Council would have to have 15 canonical members and if you have Alatar with the Black Council, I don't see what is wrong with Lenwe and some of the others I named. I'll tell you what though, I'll take away Aranwe and Voronwe, because you said in the Lost Tales that they have a son and would most likely be with him. But they do need to be replaced. Moran half valar (talk) 23:14, July 1, 2014 (UTC) :Which sources do you have for lenwe? According to MERP the Taur Romen is ruled by Thranduils cousin Lanthir.You are quite fond of numbers... --Haerangil (talk) 05:22, July 2, 2014 (UTC) Well I have a couple Lord H. One is the Silmarillion, two is the story of Lenwe in the ICE LOME 1 and Elves, lastly is a special unpublished roleplaying scenario that was sent to ICE talking about Lenwe's reign in the Rhun Forest. It was written (and you may have heard of him before) Mike Clifton and Rodney Strong. There was also a scenario sent to ICE for Maglor and the Lost Isles of Beleriand. There is a whole thing I can post on that. I'll have to see if it is okay with these original authors, but if so, I can put the story, timeline, etc. on here if you would like? Look Haergenil, it is all speculation, I don't see why Lenwe can't be on it. He rules over the "Green Elves" and they are more Denethor's people, to where Oropher and Amdir were leading remenants from Beleriand. You can't trust what Lord of the Rings wiki tells you all the time. Look at Tolkien Gateway for a more true tolkien outlook. Also, if you look at LotR wiki, you'll see they don't have the date for Lenwe's death. If you follow the river Anduin and see that it was here when they stopped, there is only one logical forest they would have trecked back to, and that was the Rhun Forest. Being this close to Mordor, Lenwe would have proven a great ally not for his leadership, but for his ancient wisdom as well! Moran half valar (talk) 06:12, July 2, 2014 (UTC) :Of course this wiki is open for fan-fiction and subcreations of all sorts... but I still have a problem with reviving Lenwe as a major player... if he was alive he would be able to claim leadership of all the Nandor and Thranduil´s and Amroth#s claims would all be without substance.--Haerangil (talk) 16:15, July 2, 2014 (UTC) Then present to me your version of the White Council. Give me a list and show me who you think would be on it. Lenwe did not die. You have seen his stats in MERP they are pretty tough. So compose to me in the next talking point a white council made of what YOU want and I'll see if it is canonical. But to be honest, Lenwe never crossed the Misty Mountains, so how did he die in Eriador? That is from the book. Moran half valar (talk) 19:00, July 2, 2014 (UTC) :well personally i would'nt add any more members than those of whom we can be asure.Second Age: Gil-Galad, Elrond, Cirdan, Galadriel and Celeborn, maybe Amdir or Amroth, but not Oropher but i´d aslo add the king of númenór.Third Age, Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Cirdan, Glorfindel,Galadriel...perhaps the acting chiefain of the rangers and maybe some aditional advisors (i.e.Erestor, Galdor, Gildor Inglorion, some others if you want even Aranwe) but not Thranduil or Lanthir.--17:06, July 3, 2014 (UTC) ::considering this lenwe thing...he seems to have led his nandor to Ithilien and is never mentioned again, that´s why i always considered him dead or missing, his son led a faction of the tribe through eriador into beleriand, got killed and afterwards the pnandor lived without a king.as it seems lenwes fate has been quite a discussion...http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1626 http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/reference/characterofthemonth/denethor.php --Haerangil (talk) 17:06, July 3, 2014 (UTC) :thinking of lenwe, all we can be sure to say is that he led some nandor southwarths, apparently to the mouths of the anduin there later were some Eldar at the gondorian coast and some wood-elves, Nimrodel and Mithrellas for example, used the harbor oif edhellond, apparently a falathrim colony, as starting point or a way to aman.It´s never stated why those Falathrim settled in Edhellond instead of Lindon, but i tghink MERP brought in the idea that those sindar were led by cirdan#s son whoi did't want to accept thr supremacy of the noldor in Lindon. anyway that elven enclave may have been in contact with the rest of the Nandor in the south, i don't think lenwe led his folk deeper in the south to harad, but that might be a possibility too..--Haerangil (talk) 17:20, July 3, 2014 (UTC) Well it says a group of the wise, and I feel if you have Alatar and Saruman with the Black Council then I don't see why Oropher or some of these others couldn't be on it. Go ahead and replace whoever you want Haergnil. Your wiki. It doesn't really matter to me. In Tolkien's world, nothing is set in stone...therefore I felt they would be on it. In regards to Oropher, even if he was a reluctant individual, he still saw the greater good and aided the Men, Elves and Dwarfs of the Last Alliance against Sauron. I strongly feel he would have to be on it. Now if you want to replace Thranduil, Pallando, Lenwe, and whoever, then I am okay with it. Like I said, your wiki. Moran half valar (talk) 19:43, July 3, 2014 (UTC) something of interest to you. http://www.ithilas.com/fos/White_Council.html :Interesting indeed.thanx a lot!--Haerangil (talk) 05:00, July 4, 2014 (UTC) ::So okay i have added Aranwe, Galathil and Arminas as possible citizens of Lindon, but i´ll leave open if they were full members of the council or just lesser Advisors/Councillors.--Haerangil (talk) 11:17, July 4, 2014 (UTC) Sounds good buddy. Thanks for the understanding and thanks for the compromise. Yeah, like I said, nothing is really set in stone on this, much like the Black Council. But I hope the people I presented make sense, and after reading the Thranduil essay, I hope you understand my thoughts on him as well. Take care and thanks for the updates. Moran half valar (talk) 16:55, July 4, 2014 (UTC) Hey Haerangil, I read some stuff on Daeron, and you are right about him not being on the 2nd Age White Council. So I put Tom Bombadil instead, but I may delete him. I figured he would be on it due to the fact that his forest was still connected to Fangorn at the time. I figured the expansions of Numenor and the war with Eregion probably prompted him to sit on it--but that what I want to know is this: I thought I read in a MERP book that Tom Bombadil is a 90th level outside the Old Forest. Have you read this anywhere? If so, I'll keep him on, if not, then I'll put Goldberry on. She doesn't do anything anyways... Moran half valar (talk) 17:12, July 20, 2014 (UTC) :I'd remove both of them.They are not Politicians or great leaders but Embodyments of Nature... Bombadil just isn't interested in Middle-Earth politics, if they#d been members it would've been mentioned somewhere in Tolkien's works.--Haerangil (talk) 20:16, July 20, 2014 (UTC) Well a lot more characters would have been mentioned. You didn't answer my question about Tom being a 90th level or not. Also, I am pretty sure though that this White Council would at least have to have a Maia of some type, right? All the races are represented. Moran half valar (talk) 20:35, July 20, 2014 (UTC) Also, the White Council is based on wise/powerful figures in Middle Earths history. They really don't have to be based on leaders. I mean, look at Gildor, Erestor, Radagast, Arminas, etc. in the Ages. I agree with you about Tom Bombadil if he is not a 90th lvl. outside the old forest. I guess Goldberry would be more fitting. What I am saying Haerangil, is that they would have had to be on it, cause their forest was there inbetween Gil-Galad's kingdom, Durins, Elronds Imladris outpost, Eregion, etc. He would have had a big part to play, cause most of the Old Forest is taken apart in the Second Age due to Numenor, Aduni, and forces of Sauron. I feel this is justified by the works of Tolkien, and I agree that they did not sit on the Third Age, perhaps because of the self preservation of the forest. Trying to rebuild it in otherwords and didn't have time for such politics of the world. But in the Second Age when their forests are being ravaged, they may have had a different outlook no? Moran half valar (talk) 21:28, July 20, 2014 (UTC) : All I'm saying is that educated guessing and fanfic/RPG Ideas are okay to me as long as thei're not too contradicting with the Canon.--Haerangil (talk) 12:48, July 21, 2014 (UTC) Okay, so that sounds good. Is Tom Bombadil a 90th level outside the Old Forest? Anywhere that you have read in MERP? Moran half valar (talk) 17:20, July 21, 2014 (UTC) I don't give too much aboput MERP stats and prefer logical conjecture... a lot MERP Stats were obviously nonsense and must be reinterpreted or re-made by Gamemasters if they want a more realistic interpretation.In my own opinion Tom Bombadil is the virtual embodyment of the Old Forest landscape, he's nearly all-mighty in his home but probably akmost inexistant everywhere else... no Ring, spell or other outer power that has not it's origin in his share of the world could harm or affect him, but similarly he woun't be able to have any power about parts of the creation that don't belong to his own realm.--Haerangil (talk) 21:06, July 21, 2014 (UTC) Hey Haerangil, I read that Alatar and Pallando came to Middle Earth in S.A. 1600. Source: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Alatar#Earlier_writings See later writings. If you agree with this. I'll add Alatar and Pallando to the white council for both Second and Third Ages. Moran half valar (talk) 23:07, November 7, 2014 (UTC) :YEs, that makes sense.--Haerangil (talk) 15:32, November 8, 2014 (UTC) I've removed the lines about Beorn. I think adding him is nonsense... never any of the Northmen-Kings had been asked to join the white council.And at that time Beorn wasn#t even a powerful Chieftain, he rose to that position after the Battle of five armies.--Haerangil (talk) 15:37, November 8, 2014 (UTC) That's fine Haerangil, the only reason why I added it, was because I had heard rumors that Peter Jackson was going to have Beorn at Dol Gulder with the White Council. So who do you think should replace Arathorn II? Or should anyone? Also, should I try to find a suitable change for Aranwe as well or no? Moran half valar (talk) 17:03, November 8, 2014 (UTC) :I think there might have been another Ranger-sub-Chief to rule as long as the new heir wasn't at age, maybe some non-canon sources could be used to find out which character you could choose.As for Aranwe, i don#t know what Role he played in Lindon... maybe he could be replaced by another Sinda-Ruler, perhaps Gaerdae.--Haerangil (talk) 14:54, November 9, 2014 (UTC) I think we need someone more canonical. I like the way the White Council is presented currently, do you? If not, I'll try to find some extra source material. Moran half valar (talk) 17:20, November 9, 2014 (UTC) :I#m not that deep in the primary sources so I really can't judge it... I#ll just let you go with the article as I see you can find plausible explanations.--Haerangil (talk) 15:14, November 10, 2014 (UTC) Members I don't see how the Blue Wizards could have been part of the white council of T.A. if they immediately went to the East and obviously never returned to the Westlands.I#m okay with some high ranking Noldor plus Celeborn and Cirdan, bit we have to keep in mind that the House of Thranduil's father had personal dispute with the Noldorin Exiles, i think that would rule out Oropher, Amdir, Galathil. I think it's even explicitly stated that Oropher refused to be part of the White Council or to subordinate his forces under Gil-Galads supreme command.I also can't see how all Dunadan Chiefs/Lords after Arahad could have been Members of the White Council.The four Dates we have would explicitly rule out any of them but Arahad, Argonui and Aragorn.I'm also not quite sure if Gelmir and Arminas would be important enough to be anything but two of Cirdan's chancellors (same for Galdor or Lindir and Erestor for Elrond).I however could imagine Aranwe or Gildor Inglorion to have had more important positions. --Haerangil (talk) 18:48, September 5, 2016 (UTC) Well the members are not explicity stated. Alatar and Pallando can be a part of the council I mean they do have teleportation abilities, and Peter Jackson showed this with Galadriel appearing and disappearing in the Hobbit films. I would say there is a higher bases for them to be on it than Oropher or Aranwe. Given that Gelmir and Arminas are both Noldor and are with Cirdan, I don't see why they couldn't be on it. I recommend moving Oropher off, which I did. But Amdir is his own king. The Second Age meetings are not given out side of 1701 when it was formed. Galathil could be on it given that you put him in the story that he is the father of Amdir. If Celeborn (Wise) and Galadriel can be on it, I don't see why Celeborn's sibling and nephew can't be on it. Moran half valar (talk) 18:53, September 5, 2016 (UTC) :I honestly don't see anybody teleporting or longdooring in Middle-Earth,so I'm still skeptical about the Ithryn Luin. Amdir is stated to have joined Forces with Oropher instead Gil-Galad, a strong hint that he also didn't particularly like the Noldor and preferred to march with a Sindarin King. --Haerangil (talk) 19:00, September 5, 2016 (UTC) :Okay well I took off the characters like you wanted and placed some others. I also got rid of Galathil, Amdir, and Oropher. Even if they can't teleport, what about astral projection? Like they do in star wars via technology? There aren't that many wizards and the Hobbit explicitly says wizards. I have made the adaptive changes that you wanted however...Moran half valar (talk) 19:06, September 5, 2016 (UTC) ::Tanks a lot.Well I think they wouldn't have made such a fuss about the Palantiri and the One Ring if Teleportation and Astral Projection would have been such an easy thing in Middle-Earth.So I still doubt that all five Wizards took part in the White Council Meetings... possibly not those two that had vanished in the east at the time.I wouldn't completely rule out they took part in some of the early meetings but I doubt it.--Haerangil (talk) 19:13, September 5, 2016 (UTC) ::Well remember, one is of Namo's people and one of Orome's. Messages can be sent via animals as well--or they could have flown on eagles--but that is all powers associated with Orome, if Pallando is of Namo's people then astral projection wouldn't have been that hard, or they could have spoke mind to mind as Gandalf clearly demonstrates to Frodo on Amon Hen. Moran half valar (talk) 19:18, September 5, 2016 (UTC) :::Yes but Messages via Animal Messengers wouldn't be what I would call actually taking part in a meeting of the White Council.Flying on Great Eagles wouln't be something I would overstretch, and surely not for long distances like from the Misty to the Red Mountains.I can't recall Gandals and Frodo at Amon Hen. I thought that was a Vision supported by the magical Powers of the Seat of Seeing, Frodo still thought Gandalf was dead though.--Haerangil (talk) 19:25, September 5, 2016 (UTC) :I also have removed Tar-Minastir. Tar-Telperien ruled until S.A. 1731 as was pretty much ignorant towards everything in Middle-Earth.Her Sucessor had to deal with all the trouble and Minastir inherited the Throne 30 years after the first White Council.As there were no further meetings until T.A. 2463 I can't see how any of his descendants until Arahad could have been members.--Haerangil (talk) 19:22, September 5, 2016 (UTC) :Tar-Minastir helped Gil-Galad in 1700 by sending a fleet under Ciryatur, yes this was during his aunt's rule, but he was a friend to Gil-Galad and should obviously be on it in 1701 given the role he played a year before. If not him then Ciryatur for actually fighting at Gil-Galad's side. Moran half valar (talk) 19:28, September 5, 2016 (UTC) ::Ciryatur actually is a very good point. As his Battle at the Gwathlo and the first White Council coincide to the same year it#s not that implausible that he took part or at least sent a messenger to meet the assembled Lords.--Haerangil (talk) 19:35, September 5, 2016 (UTC) ::You want to add him or me? Or Tar-Minastir? Moran half valar (talk) 20:10, September 5, 2016 (UTC) :::Well as it seems Minastir didn't come to Middle-Earth by himself. So Admiral Ciryadur as his Ambassador...--Haerangil (talk) 20:12, September 5, 2016 (UTC) :Red Ruddy and Andraax? No seriously?--Haerangil (talk) 12:47, September 7, 2016 (UTC) :Yeah I am sort of lacking here. Red Ruddy in ICE was said to be a guard chosen by Gil-Galad and Andraax a Maia, I don't know though. I like the idea of the Blue Wizards being on both ages, but everyone knows Alatar and Pallando came in the third age. Personally, I would like one more Noldor and a canonical Maiar/Faerie creature if possible. Moran half valar (talk) 14:56, September 7, 2016 (UTC) Sacha I really can't see any point why lesser Fairies such as Tethil or Sacha should be in the White Council.Sacha and Tethil probably even never entered the Lands of Middle-earth and stayed in Valinor.--Haerangil (talk) 15:36, October 8, 2016 (UTC) We don't know that, all is given about them are names. Why not use them? Especially since the Mithrisars are OP compared to the White Council. Also since they are considered canon, and they are more "Faerie" like, I would suggest that they are more part of the world than Valinor. Again, that is my opinion, but I don't see why they couldn't be on just like Maglor, Gelmir, or Arminas. Moran half valar (talk) 15:54, October 8, 2016 (UTC) I'll concede, change them to whatever you want, I just needed the list for something. Thanks Haerangil, whatever you want the White Council to look like, I am cool with. I'll no longer interfere delete add whoever you want Moran half valar (talk) 16:45, October 8, 2016 (UTC)